Patita Pavanas’s Bigfoot sannyas tattvaHanuman das
This is my full response to Patita Pavana prabhu’s defense of Indradyumna Swami. Initially, I responded only to Indradyumna Swami’s email, now I will respond fully.
The reason I am writing response on my website is because Patita Pavana prabhu blocked me on facebook and threw me out of his facebook group, so I can’t reply there.
Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic310.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 07:22:25 +0000 Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 07:22:15 +0000 (UTC) From: Miles Davis <firstname.lastname@example.org> Reply-To: Miles Davis <email@example.com> To: Hanuman das <firstname.lastname@example.org> Message-ID: <email@example.com>
My dear Hanuman dasa Prabhu,
All glories to Shrila Prabhupada and the faithful servants of His Divine Grace. And that includes the servants of the servants. I tried to post this as per your request, but it was apparently too long so I am sending the reply you requested to your mailbox.
Thank you for writing me and allowing me to defend my friend of some 45 years, HH Indradyumna Swami Maharaja. He has been the victim of numerous allegations, all of which are untrue which I know for a fact. I wish to say at the outset that I will not defend anyone for political or sentimental reasons, but only if there is truth, and that my words should stand up to the testing stone of Dharma Himself, Who is personified as Lord Shri Krishna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead.
I don’t care about “numerous allegations” against Indradyumna Swami, they are mostly funny, I care about proper sannyasi standards in Prabhupada’s movement. I have two problems with Indradyumna Swami, first is that he travels with unmarried young girl, and second is that he displays women in harinam in unappropriate way. Prabhupada mentioned over 1000 times in his books and women should be chaste and shy, and Indradyumna Swami is pushing a very different agenda with his “dancing girls”. So, let’s stick to these two philosophical problems that I explained in my videos and articles.
I have attended the Woodstock festivities and have been amazed by the tremendous Prabhupada consciousness there. There is an air of enthusiasm that is not found in much of our society these days, unfortunately, but which was seen everywhere in the early temples, notably 26 2nd Ave, NYC. It is the sacred duty of Shri Guru to convey the message of and devotion to the previous acharya, and this is what the disciples of HH Indradyumna have in plenty. It is a genuine phenomenon to me that they have such love and devotion for one whom they have never met.
This is nonsense. Did I mention Woodstock anywhere in my videos and articles? Did I say that something is wrong with Woodstock? Do I have any complaints regarding Woodstock? If not, then why are we discussing Woodstock?
Message of previous acarya’s is that sannyasi should not travel with young unmarried girls. If you have any other idea, please quote from Prabhupada’s books to prove your point.
To ordinary eyes this would appear as something of a miracle, but as devotees we can understand that this is nothing less than the great Brahma-Madhva-Gaudiya sampradaya in action. If it were true that there was some sort of deviousness in the character of my dear Godbrother I can assure you that the thousands of followers who are steadfastly devoted to him would not be able to remain in their service as they are now.
Brahma-Madhva-Gaudiya sampradaya doesn’t have sannyasis who travel with girls. This is modern imagination. Neither Brahma-Madhva-Gaudiya sampradaya ever had dancing girls in front of harinam party. All nonsense.
Thousands of followers prove nothing, Lady Gaga has many thousands of followers more than Indradyumna Swami, still she is not bonafide.
In fact, Indradyumna Swami himself openly states that he does not mind it when those who are cheaters in the name of religion are exposed for what they are. He has strictly observed the vow of celibacy and other vows of the renunciate for the full duration of his sannyasa. He has no affection towards any other so-called “baba” or “guru” outside of ISKCON and Shrila Prabhupada
Vow of celibacy is much better observed if you don’t travel with young female translator. I never claimed that Indradyumna Swami had sex with her, but vow of celibacy is not properly observed if you travel with young girls. No previous acarya did such thing.
Did I ever accuse Indradyumna Swami of being follower of some baba? No I didn’t, so why are you changing topic? But traveling with female translator is nowhere to be found in Prabhupada’s books, so he didn’t get that from Prabhupada either.
It is a pity that many self-motivated personalities have used ISKCON as a personal vehicle for their own benefits, to the chagrin of literally thousands of my Godbrothers and Godsisters—including me—who felt that they had lost their home and spiritual family due to this sort of activity. But bear in mind that devotional service is a razor’s edge and bringing to light dishonesty functioning in the name of Krishna consciousness is an even sharper edge. At he very least rumors should be verified as per proper Vaishnava etiquette. If an entire genre of devotees are painted with the same very wide brush there is always the chance of making false accusations, and these are severely dealt with as per the sacred Bhagavata’s version 5.26.28:
“A person who in this life bears false witness or lies while transacting business or giving charity is severely punished after death by the agents of Yamarāja. Such a sinful man is taken to the top of a mountain eight hundred miles high and thrown headfirst into the hell known as Avichimat. This hell has no shelter and is made of strong stone resembling the waves of water. There is no water there, however, and thus it is called Avichimat [waterless]. Although the sinful man is repeatedly thrown from the mountain and his body broken to tiny pieces, he still does not die but continuously suffers chastisement.”
“Bears False witness or lies?” Am I lying that Indradyumna Swami is traveling with young female translator? Your quote is completely irrelevant in this case.
So, if you claim that my accusations are false, then please analyze those photos and you will see that they are genuine. ISKCON Sannyasi traveling with young girl on 4 continents during one year is not my imagination. If you think it is ok for a sannyasi to travel with girls, then please provide relevant quote and examples from Prabhupada’s works.
I have often wondered why certain persons in ISKCON—sannyasis mostly— did not openly and aggressively challenge certain deviations within ISKCON. Either the person had something to gain, or was politically bound or—heaven’s forbid—he was actually a living specimen of one who really is as tolerant as the tree and as humble as the straw in the street. Thus I have concluded that there actually are some rare personalities who are so filled with faith in Shrila Prabhupada as being omnipresent in the Hare Krishna Movement that their faith has moved mountains. They remained steadfast and convinced that indeed His Divine Grace’s wishes for purity in action on the part of his disciples, especially the leaders, would come to pass by the grace of Shri Krishna—if not this day or the next, then soon enough.
Prabhupada said no female secretaries, and we can assume that covers translators, and all other types of personal assistants, so if somebody is filled in faith with Prabhupada, he should follow what Prabhupada said:
In the name of religion you do all nonsense rascaldom, and if the leader approves, “Yes, you can do.” Vivekananda did it. Vivekananda did it. “Yes, there is no difference between eating meat and not meating eat in terms of religious system.” He preached this, and all the sannyāsīs of Ramakrishna Mission, they eat meat, they drink, they have WOMAN SECRETARY, and everything. This Chinmayananda also like that. I know his whole history. Unless one is purely Kṛṣṇa conscious, one cannot give up ALL THESE BAD HABITS. This is the test. (Morning walk — April 24, 1974, Hyderabad)
Then this is a hint by Lord Caitanya that a sannyāsī who has renounced everything, if he lives very gorgeously, with good dress, and good house, and apartment… No. This is not approved by Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Then what is that? What does it mean? A sannyāsī living like a first-class gentleman, smoking, and very nice apartment, and some, I mean to say, LADY ASSISTANT, SECRETARY… What is this? Caitanya Mahāprabhu did not approve. He must be, as far as possible… Whatever is absolutely necessity, he should accept, not more. Yes. That is renounced order of life, not that in the name of renounced order of life he should live at the expense of the householders, very gorgeously. No. This is not sannyāsa. It is not accepted by Caitanya Mahāprabhu’s sampradāya. (Lecture CC 20.66-96, New York, November 21, 1966)
Krishna is the all-knowing and all-pervasive Lord Vishnu, and He is certainly aware of what corners of His house need cleaning. Over time I came to realize that through tapasya there were actually a few leading members of ISKCON who were bearing silently great tests on their shoulders and thus were arising as the saviors of the Hare Krishna Movement. I would include at this exalted level the gurus of both your wife and yourself—Their Holiness’ Bhakti Vikas Maharaja and Shridhara Swami. There are a few others also.
Being elder to practically all the sannyasis and GBCs in ISKCON, I have known a great many of them personally over the years, and this includes both those who have (shall we say) “lost their balance on the razor’s edge” and those who are still on the tightrope.
I have seen the horoscopes of many, many hundreds of disciples of Indradyumna Swami—maybe more. Their charts reveal that they are sincere devotees to a man—and woman—and attracting such a quality would not be possible if he himself was not up to par. “Like attracts like” — whether in the material world or in a more spiritual forum. I personally know Srimati Varshana-rani devi Mataji, very well as a person whose character is spotless, chaste and beyond reproach. She is highly intelligent and circumspect, a sold-out devotee and other than translating for Indradyumna Swami does not talk to him or bother him in any way.
Chaste woman doesn’t travel around with other men, rather she stays at home with her husband. Chaste woman will especially never travel with a sannyasi because she knows she will bring a lot of problems to herself and to sannyasi by such behavior. So, I don’t know where from are you getting your definition of chastity but it’s not from Prabhupada. Prabhupada said:
“Similarly, Devahūti was the daughter of an emperor, Svāyambhuva Manu, yet she preferred to accept Kardama Muni as her husband. She served him with great love and affection, and she knew how to please him. Therefore, she is designated here as sādhvī, which means “a chaste, faithful wife.” Her rare example is the ideal of Vedic civilization. Every woman is expected to be as good and chaste as Devahūti or Bhavānī.” (SB 3.23.1p)
See? “Chaste” means serving husband, not traveling with a sannyasi.
You may be interested to know that I have taken your challenge to contact HH Indradyumna, and though he is extremely busy he took the time to put all your doubts to rest as follows:
“My dear Godbrother Patita Pavana:
Thank you for your inquiry. Varshana-rani dasi, the devotee lady with the red arrows on the Lasting Impressions page, is my Russian translator. Literally everywhere I serve I require a Russian translator. And a good one, for obvious reasons. Throughout the year I am surrounded by Russian devotees who serve with me on my many festival programs. For example; 200 plus Russian devotees serve with me during the 2 1/2 month period of the Polish Festival tour. And again they served with me during our recent 6 weeks, Discover India” tour in the USA. And they are with me here in India now for 5 weeks on our Kartika Parikrama. In the months to come these same 200 Russian devotees will accompany me to China and back again to the USA. Varshani rani serves as my translator. Nothing more, nothing less. More important is that she is part of our stage show. She is a main actor in all 3 dramas that we put on in all the countries mentioned above. She is NOT a secretary. I hardly have any dealings with her aside from her translating. Yes, she comes on harinams, as do all my disciples wherever I am.
“It should be noted that I also have a Russian male secretary – Mahavan das – who travels with me most places I go. Ananta Vrindavan das ( our photographer ) is also Russian. I also travel with a male Russian cook ( because of my cancer ). So 4 males and 1 female. Again, Varshana rani only translates. And she always stays separately from the rest of us.
Why doesn’t Hanuman das show photos of the 4 other permanent Russian assistants traveling with me – who are all male – unless he wants to create a dishonest story and spin fake news?
“There are plenty of photos of Srila Prabhupada with my respected godsister Yamuna dasi, who cooked and traveled with Srila Prabhupada for years here in India. There are even photos of her walking close to Srila Prabhupada in England. There are also photos of Srila Prabhupada with Visakha dasi, who photographed him for years here in India and elsewhere. There are many other women who served in close proximity to Srila Prabhupada over extended periods of time. They always conducted themselves properly. And so do the women who travel, or serve, with me.
“Yes, there is a video of devotes girls dancing in front of me in a kirtan in a temple. I didn’t plan that, or authorize what they did. In fact, I chastised them afterwards. There is a video of me ‘stage diving’. It’s many years old. I don’t do that anymore.
“Again, because of the nature of my services [ large worldwide festival programs ] I am surrounded by the same 100-200 Russian devotees much of the year. A detractor of mine could select photos of any of them and surmise that Indradyumna Swami is associating too much with any one person.
“Theoretically, any of the above mentioned devotees could have red lines drawn to their heads. These detractors are using tricks to create a certain impression which is dishonest and untrue. I openly invite them to travel with me and see things as they are. I have nothing to hide.”
I already answered this part in my video
Hanuman dasa, as far as the video of Chaturatma dasa dancing at kirtan with two ladies, I must add that this staunch devotee’s character is far beyond reproach. He is a householder, married faithfully to the same Mataji for decades. He is like an uncle to these ladies and as an elder is sharing some familial affection, something ISKCON needs more of. Shrila Prabhupada mentions that pure males and pure females may celebrate sometimes together, but this should not be taken wrongly by the small-minded. In ISKCON, due to so many fall-downs, there is an all-encompassing tendency towards suspicion. However, as a friend of Chaturatma, I can assure anyone who is interested in my opinion that he is not that guy. Chaturatmata is actually a rare pandit. He knows the lilas of the associates of Mahaprabhu from beginning to end and speaks on their activities with such memory, devotion and commentary that his talks leave me feeling awe-struck.
Pure males and females celebrate together only in spiritual world. Spinning with girls is not proper behavior of this staunch devotee. This is cat and dog level. My God, I hope not many people will not take you seriously and start spinning with other people’s wives like an “uncle”.
My team and myself personally will take care that all proponents of spinning tattva are publicly exposed on my website. I didn’t know that you actually support gopi spinning tattva, and people who spin gopis are called by you “staunch devotees whose character is far beyond reproach”. Be ashamed of yourself, you betrayed Prabhupada’s legacy.
So you have requested my response and I have given it. I would add that as a footnote it was HH Indradyumna Swami who hustled your spiritual master HH Shridhara Swami out of Canada when he was going into a hepatitis coma and got him safely to Mayapura. I am a little surprised that a disciple of Shridhar Maharaja could resort to such hearsay. From the lilas of the Mahabhagavatas of described in Shri Chaitanya Charitamrita we learn that he Godbrother and associate of Shri Guru is likewise accorded the same respect. Don’t forget, I was locked in a prison cell for weeks with your Guru Maharaja and know His Holiness well, As a close friend of your Guru Maharaja who stood trial alongside for capital murder in corrupt India I can say that he will look with great disdain upon your couched accusations of his dear sannyasi Godbrother. That also will not benefit your spiritual advancement.
Helping a Godbrother doesn’t make it ok to travel with young unmarried girls. I don’t operate on the principle of who is my friend and who is friend of my guru. I operate on the principle of building a serious movement based on Srila Prabhupada’s instructions. That includes genuine sannyasis. And Srila Prabhupada instructions doesn’t include grhastas spinning gopis and sannyasis travelling with cute female translators.
If you like lilas of Mahabhagavatas and Caitanya Caritamrta, please send me some lilas where sannyasis were travelling with young unmarried women. I would very much like to see such a lilas in sastra.
Otherwise, I wish you and your service well, and offer my sincere regards to your wife and family,I do hope that this meets you and yours well, and I beg to remain,
Thank you. But it turned out that you are ready to burry and block on facebook anybody who doesn’t accept sannyasi girl travel tattva. Indradyumna Swami is also willing to lie and portray Prabhupada as someone who travels with girls. It would be much more simple that this incident was resolved by removing one russian translator. But as you and Indradyumna Swami insist on continuing this nonsense, I will continue exposing this fake idea.
Yours in the seva of the Vaishnavas,
Patita Pavana dasa
Vaishnava is not a cheap thing,
ys Hanuman das
Oh yea, I almost forgot, Patita Pavana das is not only expert for sannyasis who travel with girls and staunch devotees who spin with girls, he is also is expert for Bigfoot sannyasis. He is an introductory post in which he suggests that Bigfoot is actually kimpurusa:
And his wife, who deleted my Indradyumna Swami video when bhakta Pepe posted it, is also expert in Bigfoot sannyasi tattva. Poor bhakta Pepe was also blocked in the process :joy: . That is because my video is nonsense. And here is some real knowledge about what happens when female secretary leaves Bigfoot sannyasi:
So, in the same time, Bigfoot sannyasi will not leave even a hair because he hates materialistic scientists and he doesn’t want to be discovered, but he will happily cut wood for old babushkas and exchange this service for bread. :joy: :joy: :joy: That makes sense.
Now, when they understood Bigfoot sannyasi tattva, hopefully, at some future date, Patita Pavana das and his wife will also understand human sannyasi tattva.
All Indradyumna Swami disciples, and his well wishers should go to Radhanath baba seminar about forgiveness and learn how to forgive me. I actually don’t have a problem if Indradyumna Swami followers believe that sannyasi can travel with young woman, it’s a free world, you can believe whatever you want. You can even take initiation from Donald Duck as far as I am concerned. But also, you should allow me to read Prabhupada’s books and preach that sannyasi who travels with girls is not ok. Because that is what Prabhupada was preaching. In the meantime, until you understand that point, you should forgive me:
Radhanath baba, many thanks for explaining this in such a wonderful way 😀